Comments on: Q&A: Managing a Job with Bipolar Disorder http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html Information and support Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:51:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: dugg http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-384 dugg Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:08:40 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-384 I'm in my early 50s now, and was well into my third "career" before I was diagnosed. Each of them lasted about a decade or so - from freelance tech on sound and lights to establishing a graphic design/marketing firm and now I program live cultural presentations with musicians, video artists and poets that are presented to 10,000 a day who've bought tickets to be there... I think that before I was diagnosed, I was attracted to, found acceptance and was successful in environments where one had to be able to think quickly and creatively, deal with all kinds of people and it was generally expected one would work at odd hours and a wide variety of things. I would suggest to prospective employers that the working conditions may need to be tailored to some degree to fit the particular strengths, challenges and ongoing changes of the employee (bipolar or not, really). Given the trends in recent years towards contracting out, tele-commuting, virtual corporations, etc this can even be a bonus. Add to this the enhanced levels of creativity, sensitivity etc that often come wrapped in the bipolar package, so to speak, any number of companies could sorely use a lot more of these traits than they often seem to have, or encourage. At the same time, if I was expected to show up everyday from 9 to 5 not because there was anything special to do or not do but just because "it's the way we do things" or to show I was a "team player" I wouldn't last a week. After a decade in my trade, I know for a fact that I work longer, harder than 90% of the people in my field. The projects I work together with artists and tech crews to develop and present are risky, exciting and influential... ...but I can't stand being bored. I also can't stand stupid rituals that are all about "appearances" and/or the illusion of control, and that really have little to do with the quality, the quantity or even the rate at which work gets done. So perhaps one of the questions to find a nice way to ask employers might be something along the lines of "do you want someone who will do exactly (and only) what you tell them to do including being at their desk, dressed in a presentable fashion at 9am... or does this job need someone ... special?" because in my experience, for people who are bipolar, thinking inside the box is the hard part... literally and figuratively. for what it's worth, d I’m in my early 50s now, and was well into my third “career” before I was diagnosed. Each of them lasted about a decade or so - from freelance tech on sound and lights to establishing a graphic design/marketing firm and now I program live cultural presentations with musicians, video artists and poets that are presented to 10,000 a day who’ve bought tickets to be there…
I think that before I was diagnosed, I was attracted to, found acceptance and was successful in environments where one had to be able to think quickly and creatively, deal with all kinds of people and it was generally expected one would work at odd hours and a wide variety of things.
I would suggest to prospective employers that the working conditions may need to be tailored to some degree to fit the particular strengths, challenges and ongoing changes of the employee (bipolar or not, really). Given the trends in recent years towards contracting out, tele-commuting, virtual corporations, etc this can even be a bonus.
Add to this the enhanced levels of creativity, sensitivity etc that often come wrapped in the bipolar package, so to speak, any number of companies could sorely use a lot more of these traits than they often seem to have, or encourage.
At the same time, if I was expected to show up everyday from 9 to 5 not because there was anything special to do or not do but just because “it’s the way we do things” or to show I was a “team player” I wouldn’t last a week.
After a decade in my trade, I know for a fact that I work longer, harder than 90% of the people in my field. The projects I work together with artists and tech crews to develop and present are risky, exciting and influential…
…but I can’t stand being bored.
I also can’t stand stupid rituals that are all about “appearances” and/or the illusion of control, and that really have little to do with the quality, the quantity or even the rate at which work gets done.
So perhaps one of the questions to find a nice way to ask employers might be something along the lines of “do you want someone who will do exactly (and only) what you tell them to do including being at their desk, dressed in a presentable fashion at 9am…
or does this job need someone … special?”

because in my experience, for people who are bipolar, thinking inside the box is the hard part…
literally and figuratively.
for what it’s worth,
d

]]> By: MaryAnn http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-24 MaryAnn Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:01:02 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-24 Thanks so much for the information that everyone has given me. I would like to let you all know that I have not labeled my clients. I work with people with all kinds of mental and physical disabilities. I am the only one at the job site that knows what disability they have. We do not let the employer know unless it is a disability that needs special attention while they are at work. I have worked with other clients that are Bi-Polar and have not had this problem. That is why I used the term "these people", not these bi-polar people but these specific clients that can't seem to get to work on time. We work swing and graveyards shifts so it is not having to get up early. Dana makes more sense to me when I think about the clients that I am trying to find a way to help them be successful on their jobs. When they are at work they do a good job and catch on really quick. They do seem to be perfectionists. One client was a stocker at a commissary, his section was always so clean and straight. He had to have everything just perfect, that was another problem he had because that slowed him down. The boss expected them to put so many cases up in a certain amount of time. He was so frustrated because his speed was not getting better. Now just getting him to put, getting to work on time as his first priority. As a job coach I can not go to their home and make sure they get ready and out the door. Maybe a quick call to them to see how the night before went and get them excited for that night. Joe, thank you so much. I do not want to offend anyone! I have a daughter that was diagnosed with diabetes when she was 6, she is 29 now. It is not easy to watch your child go through life with different hurdles they have to go through. Minnie and Marilyn I am sorry I offended you, that was not my intent. I knew that their were people that live with this on a daily basis that could give me some advise so that I will be able to help my clients now and the ones that I will have in the future. If there is anything else that I should know about Bi-Polar that would help me with my clients I would appreciate it. All I know is what you all have told me. Thanks so much for the information that everyone has given me. I would like to let you all know that I have not labeled my clients. I work with people with all kinds of mental and physical disabilities. I am the only one at the job site that knows what disability they have. We do not let the employer know unless it is a disability that needs special attention while they are at work. I have worked with other clients that are Bi-Polar and have not had this problem. That is why I used the term “these people”, not these bi-polar people but these specific clients that can’t seem to get to work on time. We work swing and graveyards shifts so it is not having to get up early. Dana makes more sense to me when I think about the clients that I am trying to find a way to help them be successful on their jobs. When they are at work they do a good job and catch on really quick. They do seem to be perfectionists. One client was a stocker at a commissary, his section was always so clean and straight. He had to have everything just perfect, that was another problem he had because that slowed him down. The boss expected them to put so many cases up in a certain amount of time. He was so frustrated because his speed was not getting better. Now just getting him to put, getting to work on time as his first priority. As a job coach I can not go to their home and make sure they get ready and out the door. Maybe a quick call to them to see how the night before went and get them excited for that night.
Joe, thank you so much. I do not want to offend anyone! I have a daughter that was diagnosed with diabetes when she was 6, she is 29 now. It is not easy to watch your child go through life with different hurdles they have to go through.
Minnie and Marilyn I am sorry I offended you, that was not my intent. I knew that their were people that live with this on a daily basis that could give me some advise so that I will be able to help my clients now and the ones that I will have in the future.
If there is anything else that I should know about Bi-Polar that would help me with my clients I would appreciate it. All I know is what you all have told me.

]]> By: Dr. Fink http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-25 Dr. Fink Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:15:16 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-25 Dana brings up a number of problem solving strategies that she has used to address some challenges that were specific to her situation. Perfectionism - sometimes like an obsessive or compulsive pattern - is an often overlooked cause of lateness for many people with bipolar disorder. Dana mentioned strategies such as developing routines and allowing more time in the mornings - which have been helpful to her and will likely help others. There is also the notion of "talking yourself out" of the perfectionism - and working on staying focused on the priority task of getting to work on time, rather than the task of doing something else to perfection. This can sometimes be a symptom that requires more specific types of therapy - anxiety reduction or other cognitive behavioral techniques - that can assist those who find that talking themselves out of it isn't enough. Another problem solving strategy - a general one that can be a starting point for almost all problems - is getting help from someone. Dana says that her boss helped her identify some of the specific patterns that were getting in the way of getting to work on time. If you are struggling with trying to find a solution to a problem - a good starting point is often - "ask for help." Sharing these strategies helps others who are looking for ways to solve their specific problems. While the same strategies won't work for everyone - they can be a starting point or a springboard for solutions that are more individualized to another person's needs. Dana brings up a number of problem solving strategies that she has used to address some challenges that were specific to her situation. Perfectionism - sometimes like an obsessive or compulsive pattern - is an often overlooked cause of lateness for many people with bipolar disorder. Dana mentioned strategies such as developing routines and allowing more time in the mornings - which have been helpful to her and will likely help others. There is also the notion of “talking yourself out” of the perfectionism - and working on staying focused on the priority task of getting to work on time, rather than the task of doing something else to perfection. This can sometimes be a symptom that requires more specific types of therapy - anxiety reduction or other cognitive behavioral techniques - that can assist those who find that talking themselves out of it isn’t enough.

Another problem solving strategy - a general one that can be a starting point for almost all problems - is getting help from someone. Dana says that her boss helped her identify some of the specific patterns that were getting in the way of getting to work on time. If you are struggling with trying to find a solution to a problem - a good starting point is often - “ask for help.”

Sharing these strategies helps others who are looking for ways to solve their specific problems. While the same strategies won’t work for everyone - they can be a starting point or a springboard for solutions that are more individualized to another person’s needs.

]]> By: Dana http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-23 Dana Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:39:19 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-23 MaryAnn, I am a 30 yr old bipolar female, and prior to being diagnosed with bipolar i was an extremely successful executive, the one problem i had was my timing and that seemed to be a recurring issue throughout my career. Just before i was diagnosed, i was very lucky to have a boss who not only took the issue seriously but actually helped me understand my problem. What i discovered, and what you may find is 80% of people who are late to work are actually perfectionists. Perfectionists, naturally create a vision or a goal and it becomes more important to them to achieve that than to adhere to a scheduled work timing. What happens is they get carried away and focus on getting the goal/vision ahcieved and get sidetracked, you may find with ppl having the bipolar disorder that they are more prone to getting sidetracked. Plus the fact that everyone is generally slower when they wake up, so something that would take you 3 mins in the evening, will take you 6 mins in the morning...and so you have to do as much as possible the nigt before, and create a morning routine and talk yourself into dropping all other irrelevant tasks and actually getting to work on time. Once, i was diagnosed with bipolar i started being late again after having been punctual for a year, it was mainly because of the heavy medication that i was on that literary makes its impossible to wake up and face the world. But like someone earlier said, the earlier you take the medicine the easier it is to wake up, one of the key things i found in helping me recover from a relapse, is routine...getting into a routine is extremely theraputic and helps us get by until we feel normal again. MaryAnn,

I am a 30 yr old bipolar female, and prior to being diagnosed with bipolar i was an extremely successful executive, the one problem i had was my timing and that seemed to be a recurring issue throughout my career. Just before i was diagnosed, i was very lucky to have a boss who not only took the issue seriously but actually helped me understand my problem. What i discovered, and what you may find is 80% of people who are late to work are actually perfectionists. Perfectionists, naturally create a vision or a goal and it becomes more important to them to achieve that than to adhere to a scheduled work timing. What happens is they get carried away and focus on getting the goal/vision ahcieved and get sidetracked, you may find with ppl having the bipolar disorder that they are more prone to getting sidetracked. Plus the fact that everyone is generally slower when they wake up, so something that would take you 3 mins in the evening, will take you 6 mins in the morning…and so you have to do as much as possible the nigt before, and create a morning routine and talk yourself into dropping all other irrelevant tasks and actually getting to work on time.

Once, i was diagnosed with bipolar i started being late again after having been punctual for a year, it was mainly because of the heavy medication that i was on that literary makes its impossible to wake up and face the world. But like someone earlier said, the earlier you take the medicine the easier it is to wake up, one of the key things i found in helping me recover from a relapse, is routine…getting into a routine is extremely theraputic and helps us get by until we feel normal again.

]]> By: Joe http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-22 Joe Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:26:57 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-22 I don't think that MaryAnn meant any harm by using the phrase "these people." I can see how someone could be offended by it, but I hope it does not eclipse the fact that MaryAnn is a job coach who is sincerely trying to assist her clients who have bipolar disorder return to fulfilling jobs. I applaud her for seeking advice and trying to make a difference. We all occasionally have a slip of the tongue that offends somebody. Let's forgive the slip and celebrate the fact that MaryAnn is trying to improve the lives of her clients. I don’t think that MaryAnn meant any harm by using the phrase “these people.” I can see how someone could be offended by it, but I hope it does not eclipse the fact that MaryAnn is a job coach who is sincerely trying to assist her clients who have bipolar disorder return to fulfilling jobs. I applaud her for seeking advice and trying to make a difference. We all occasionally have a slip of the tongue that offends somebody. Let’s forgive the slip and celebrate the fact that MaryAnn is trying to improve the lives of her clients.

]]> By: Dr. Fink http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-21 Dr. Fink Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:09:12 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-21 The recent discussion has brought up some of the most delicate and difficult issues related to bipolar disorder and mental illness overall. Without a doubt any individual who is diagnosed with bipolar disorder will be different from the next and the problems faced by one person won't necessarily be the problems faced by another. I think that the goal of working with someone who has bipolar - as a clinician or friend or family member - is to keep this in mind and to not make any assumptions about the problems this person faces. My point may not have been clear in my previous post - but I agree with Minnie and Marilyn - that the goal in the work is to explore specific difficulties - not to make assumptions about the problems someone is having. The great news is that so many individuals with bipolar disorder have overcome many problems and are doing beautifully! Having bipolar disorder does not mean that someone will not be able to function - thinking this way is prejudiced and uninformed. However, bipolar disorder often creates some difficulties in life that need to be addressed. Every human has areas of challenge that they work on problem solving and changing. People with bipolar are no different in that respect - but the areas of difficulty for a person with bipolar disorder are often big hurdles that take careful strategies and creative ideas to get past. Just as stigma and prejudice about bipolar disorder are dangerous it can also be dangerous to ignore a problem that needs to be solved. Eliminating stigma is critical in this world - and yes the US is probably lagging behind in this area. No arguments from me there. But eliminating stigma is not the same as not identifying problems and digging in to solve them. Eliminating stigma includes accepting these problems as just part of life - part of any given individual's needs - rather than labeling these problems as "weakness" or "craziness." The recent discussion has brought up some of the most delicate and difficult issues related to bipolar disorder and mental illness overall. Without a doubt any individual who is diagnosed with bipolar disorder will be different from the next and the problems faced by one person won’t necessarily be the problems faced by another. I think that the goal of working with someone who has bipolar - as a clinician or friend or family member - is to keep this in mind and to not make any assumptions about the problems this person faces. My point may not have been clear in my previous post - but I agree with Minnie and Marilyn - that the goal in the work is to explore specific difficulties - not to make assumptions about the problems someone is having.

The great news is that so many individuals with bipolar disorder have overcome many problems and are doing beautifully! Having bipolar disorder does not mean that someone will not be able to function - thinking this way is prejudiced and uninformed. However, bipolar disorder often creates some difficulties in life that need to be addressed. Every human has areas of challenge that they work on problem solving and changing. People with bipolar are no different in that respect - but the areas of difficulty for a person with bipolar disorder are often big hurdles that take careful strategies and creative ideas to get past. Just as stigma and prejudice about bipolar disorder are dangerous it can also be dangerous to ignore a problem that needs to be solved. Eliminating stigma is critical in this world - and yes the US is probably lagging behind in this area. No arguments from me there. But eliminating stigma is not the same as not identifying problems and digging in to solve them. Eliminating stigma includes accepting these problems as just part of life - part of any given individual’s needs - rather than labeling these problems as “weakness” or “craziness.”

]]> By: Marilyn http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-20 Marilyn Sun, 12 Aug 2007 04:15:48 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-20 I also am extremely irritated by the comments that were made about "these people".They have to live each and every day trying to overcome the stigma that most people place on them while most of them are productive members of society. As the mother of a young adult that was diagnosed more than five years ago as a rapid cycling Bipolar I while she was still in high school , yes there were days that she had difficulty getting up due to medication side effects. But that was overcome by taking them earlier in the evening. Five years later she has just finished her bachelor's degree as a Registered Nurse. There have been good times and some really really bad times but our faith has always shown us the way. Most days she is fully functional and most people around her don't know that she is bipolar as she also does not feel the need to walk around with a label on her chest. But if anyone asks or talks about it she is open about it. I also wonder if the fact that we live in Canada has any thing to do with the fact that people seem more tolerant of this disease maybe because we have universal health care and there are fewer cases left untreated. I also am extremely irritated by the comments that were made about “these people”.They have to live each and every day trying to overcome the stigma that most people place on them while most of them are productive members of society. As the mother of a young adult that was diagnosed more than five years ago as a rapid cycling Bipolar I while she was still in high school , yes there were days that she had difficulty getting up due to medication side effects. But that was overcome by taking them earlier in the evening. Five years later she has just finished her bachelor’s degree as a Registered Nurse. There have been good times and some really really bad times but our faith has always shown us the way. Most days she is fully functional and most people around her don’t know that she is bipolar as she also does not feel the need to walk around with a label on her chest. But if anyone asks or talks about it she is open about it. I also wonder if the fact that we live in Canada has any thing to do with the fact that people seem more tolerant of this disease maybe because we have universal health care and there are fewer cases left untreated.

]]> By: Minnie http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-19 Minnie Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:25:20 +0000 http://finkshrink.com/blog/qa/qa-managing-a-job-with-bipolar-disorder.html#comment-19 Firstly, please do not assume everyone with bipolar disorder is late for work or cannot keep a job. How many people without this "label" do exactly the same thing as stated in your article? Many, no doubt. I have a job and I'm in a long term, stable relationship. Yes, I have bipolar disorder. I have been diagnosed as "quote" - "rapid cycling, treatment resistant bipolar II disorder". I've survived 16 treatments of ECT. I've also survived a suicide attempt and I've come back and proved that I'm a survivor. Your comments irritated me. I do not like the quote "these people". We are trying to abolish the stigma of mental illness and these quotes by you are not helping. Maybe Australia is more advanced in this area. We are treated equally and do not walk around with a label on our foreheads. Firstly, please do not assume everyone with bipolar disorder is late for work or cannot keep a job. How many people without this “label” do exactly the same thing as stated in your article? Many, no doubt. I have a job and I’m in a long term, stable relationship. Yes, I have bipolar disorder. I have been diagnosed as “quote” - “rapid cycling, treatment resistant bipolar II disorder”. I’ve survived 16 treatments of ECT. I’ve also survived a suicide attempt and I’ve come back and proved that I’m a survivor.

Your comments irritated me. I do not like the quote “these people”. We are trying to abolish the stigma of mental illness and these quotes by you are not helping. Maybe Australia is more advanced in this area. We are treated equally and do not walk around with a label on our foreheads.

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